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Re: Fundamental design flaws

On Wednesday, Oct 29, 2003, at 18:37 US/Eastern, Tom Lord wrote:

For me, currently, there are at least six big issues with the srfi.  I
will list these and then say more about each below.

1) lack of extensibility

2) requirement for and definition of procedures for which valid
   arguments can not be provided using only the facilities of the srfi
   (and standard scheme)

3) unfortunate class hierarchy

4) absense of reasonable support for iterators

Please stop saying 'iterator.'  It is very vague and has various
different meanings.  If you mean 'cursor,' _say_ 'cursor,' but don't
say 'iterator' because it will confuse people (as it confused me; I'm
still not quite sure what you mean by 'iterator' in this section).

5) unfortunate handling of "equivalence functions"

6) buggy and incomplete implementation with unreasonable dependencies.


1) lack of extensibility

   I simply do not believe your claims that adding definitions for
   type constructors would in any serious way damage implementations.

   Nothing about type constructors would _require_ that all
   collection types are created by them;  nothing would prevent
   native collection types from having whatever representations
   they like.

   Collection type constructors could be reasonably implemented in a
   reference implementation by using the facilities of srfi-9.

   Collection type constructors are a prerequisite for allowing people
   to write portable implementations of collection types.   While a
   portable implementation may or may not be less efficient than
   a native one, many useful collection types would perform quite
   reasonably using just about any reasonable implementation of
   srfi-9, a srfi which I would hope that any non-trivial Scheme
   implementation seeks to implement well.

I fail to see why we would include MAKE-* instead of MAKE-%.  As it
has been stated before, if you like saying MAKE-DICTIONARY instead of
some way to make a hash table that compares with EQ?, write:

(define (make-dictionary) (make-hash-table eq? eq-hash))

and then you're happy.  However, if we were to specify MAKE-* instead
of MAKE-%, what would MAKE-DICTIONARY make? what arguments would it
take? would it create an alist, which would be pretty inefficient?
would it create a hash table, in which case it would have to guess
what you like to compare with? et cetera.

2) unusable procedures

   44 defines procedures which client programs have no use for.
   For example, all of the SET functions could be correctly
   implemented as:

	(define (set-fn . ignored)
          (error "there is no such thing as a set"))

What a useful implementation _that_ would be!

   Specifications of such procedures should come after, not before
   the specification of values that would make them meaningful.

What do you mean by 'meaningful?'  Their specifications are very well-
defined.  Their meanings in the context of concrete collection types
are clear.  What more do you want?

3) unfortunate class hierarchy

  I recognize that there are, for example, operations which apply
  generically to sequences and dictionaries.

  It is a fine idea to provide an abstract interface to such
  operations, much as Common Lisp does for sequences.

  However, this srfi goes much further than that.  In particular, it
  requires that, in these abstract interfaces, a list or a vector is
  always a sequence and never a dictionary.

Where would a vector be used and exposed to be used as a dictionary?

(the 'exposed to be used' bit is important: yes, I'm aware that hash
tables use vectors _internally_; _you_, however, are arguing that we
should be using SRFI 9 a lot more; you would probably then advocate
using SRFI 9 to abstract away hash tables or whatever other type, and
then we wouldn't have this problem)

  The reason it must do so is because it seeks to unify everything
  that might vaguely be called a "collection" in a class hierarchy,
  and to provide abstract interfaces to collections in general.
  No motivation is provided, however, for the existence of a
  COLLECTION? type.   And if it is the case that a COLLECTION? type
  is truly desirable, no rationale is provided to explain why SEQUENCE?
  gets the privilege of subsuming the LIST? type rather than, say SET?

  Related to this is the fact that some procedures that accept a
  collection are, in fact, partial functions of the set of

  Let me put this a little differently: supposing I really like the
  abstract parts of the collections interface of 44 but I'm writing a
  program that wants to use ordinary lists (plus some other
  implementation-specific types) as _dictionaries_ not sequences.

Why would you do this, and not abstract their interface away?

  It'd be swell to have the genericty of 44 to help me operate
  transparently on either of these two representations, but I can't --
  because in 44 a list is always a sequence, not a dictionary.

  I wonder if it wouldn't be an improvement to _not_ attempt to
  provide a "collections" interface, but rather to provide separate
  interfaces for sets, dictionaries, and sequences?

  I'll happily live without COLLECTION-COPY if you can give me both
  DICTIONARY-COPY (accepting normal association lists) and
  SEQUENCE-COPY (accepting normal lists).

4) absense of reasonable support for iterators

  Let us suppose that I would like to iterate over the elements of two
  or more collections, randomly choosing which collection to pick an
  element from next.

  The -FOLD- procedures permit me to do this but only by one of a few
  means all of which seem to be horribly inefficient compared to what
  is achievable:  I can convert the collections to lists or some other
  type;   I can use call/cc.

There, you've just stated how you can perfectly easily convert a fold
operation into a cursor.  Horribly inefficient?  There are plenty of
implementations of CALL/CC that are quite efficient.

  Compared to, say, incrementing an index integer or taking the CDR of
  a pair, those techniques for iteration over multiple collections are

What prevents you from using those two methods of iteration?  For
list-like structures, use *-DELETE-LEFT, which returns the left-most
value and the rest of the collection (this is like SRFI 1's CAR+CDR).
For vector-like structures, use *-REF.  What's so difficult about

             It is a serious weakness of 44 that it does not define
  generic interfaces to iterators which would not require those

There are compelling reasons to specify folding enumerators instead of
cursors, and there are easy implementations of cursors in terms of
folding enumerators.  It is therefore rather pointless to specify both
folding enumerators _and_ cursors.

5) unfortunate handling of "equivalence functions"

  Similarly to the way that 44 forces all lists to be sequences but
  not dictionaries, it also forces all lists to EQV?-based bags.

  Parametric equality is pervasive in Scheme (and, really, all lisp
  dialects).   You've got MEMQ, MEMV, and MEMBER, for example.

  I am not at all clear why I would really want just BAG-CONTAINS? for
  example rather than BAG-CONTQ?, BAG-CONTV?, BAG-CONTAINS? (and,
  perhaps BAG-CONTAINS=? to permit an arbitrary predicate).

  For something like a hash table, sure -- at creation time I really
  need to establish what notion of equality (and hence, hashing) is in
  play -- but for bags?

OK.  This point I concede.  I don't like the handling of equality
functions either.  I'd probably prefer optional comparison arguments
to many of the procedures, but I'd have to talk with Scott and
Matthias about this before becoming certain that that would be better.

6) buggy and incomplete implementation with unreasonable dependencies.

  Bugs and missing things can be fixed, of course, but in its current
  state, the srfi truly ought to be rejected by the editors on this

  Tiny-Clos is, in my opinion, a quite unreasonable dependency.   At
  the _very_ least it should be included in the reference
  implementation so that the proposal is self contained.

I was going to do this when I first rewrote the implementation with
Tiny-CLOS, but then I realized it would be kind of silly, given how
many various modifications/reimplementations of Tiny-CLOS there are.
I therefore left it at a list of notes about Tiny-CLOS, what needs to
be changed in the standard Tiny-CLOS distribution, et cetera; this is
plenty to easily modify the standard Tiny-CLOS distribution to your
liking, and to make implementors of variants of Tiny-CLOS easily
modify their implementations to make it work with SRFI 44.

  I would much prefer to see a reference implementation based on
  srfi-9 rather than one that defines lots of complicated new
  functionality well outside the scope of the srfi.

SRFI 9 doesn't define any sort of dispatching mechanism.  How would it
help here?

  A few srfis are clearly special:  they either can't be portably
  implemented or a portable implementation is, at best, a toy.
  srfi-9 is a good example of the latter.

  Informally, though, the _point_ of such foundational srfis is quite
  sophisticated:   to provide a spec that interfaces can implement in
  a non-toy fashion without compromising their quality, and to spare
  future srfis from having reference implementations that share those
  unfortunate properties.

  Since srfi-9 is ample mechanism to implement 44, it would be vastly
  preferable to dragging in Tiny-Clos.

I fail to see why 'dragging in' Tiny-CLOS is a bad idea.  I chose
Tiny-CLOS because it provides a simple mechanism for dispatching on
collection types and it works with existing collection types.  SRFI 9
is for something entirely different: opaque record types.

But anyways, if you notice the organization of the reference
implementation, you'll see that it looks like it was deliberately
designed to fit several implementations.  A utilities.scm file exists
for utilities that aren't specific to one implementation, or don't
depend on the mechanism that that implementation uses.  Then there is
utilities_tiny-clos.scm, a file of utilities that depend on Tiny-CLOS.
Finally, there is srfi-44_tiny-clos.scm, a file that defines SRFI 44
in terms of Tiny-CLOS.  A srfi-44_yasos.scm might later be put in the
archive of the implementation; perhaps also a srfi-44_meroon.scm.  I
merely chose Tiny-CLOS because it has a portable implementation and
defines a simple dispatching mechanism; it was useful at the time I
chose it.  (YASOS was used previously, but it required lots of CONDs
in the generic operations, and I didn't like that; that's why I moved
to Tiny-CLOS)

Perhaps it would be helpful to take a more bottom-up approach.
Rather than trying to make a "collections" srfi that is a 100%
solution for that domain, start by making a "sequences" srfi and a
"dictionary" srfi and a "set" srfi -- and then see whether there are
higher-order generalizations to make after that.

I haven't seen any compelling reasons to do this.